Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome into the Think Deeper podcast. Will hareb here, joined by Joe and Jack Wilkie. We've got a phenomenal episode ready for you guys today, but we are going to indulge a little bit in our pre show announcements. And I would encourage you, don't skip past it if you're one of those people that kind of skips past the introductory advertisements. I totally understand. I do that on other podcasts as well. But don't do that for this one because we have some. It's not just a regular promo thing. We've got a lot of big things we want to talk to you about and so just bear with us. We will get into the episode in three to four minutes, depending on how long winded Jack is. But, um, I'm going to give a few things and then hand it over to Jack for kind of the really big announcement. The first thing we've kind of talked about before, um, my mom and dad's parenting book, Brad and Melinda Harab arrows in the hand of a warrior. We do have it in house. Now, those orders were shipped out yesterday. If you were pre ordered, if you have already pre ordered, those, um, have been shipped, and by the time this comes out, you might already have it. But regardless, arrows in the hand of a warrior. Parenting children towards heaven is now out. And so if you are not familiar with that, my mom and dad sat down and wrote a parenting book together. I'd encourage you to take a look at it, encourage you to pick up a copy, focuspress.org.
and there's links to it all over my dad's Facebook as well. And so that's now in house. And then another book or ebook, I guess you might say, has also been released. Jack. Our very own Jack Wilkie released Christ's co rulers. Jack, what's the subtitle of that one?
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Understanding christian political engagement.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Understanding christian political engagement. So for this time of year, just a fantastic, fantastically timed release. I'm very much looking forward to reading that one. But I'm going to go and hand it over to Jack to kind of give more information on how to access that one. And then another, the other big announcement that we have, there's a lot of cool stuff going on at Focus Press right now. So very, very excited for that. But Jack, tell us more about your book.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's a collection of stuff I've written over the years, but it also has a lot of new material. I've been just pounding away at the keyboard here the last few weeks trying to get it done and so a lot of new entries in it. And it's just a collection of many chapters, many articles, essays, whatever you want to call them, on christian political engagement. There's so much stuff telling christians not to engage politics are too divisive.
Jesus kingdom is not of this world, and we're here to win hearts and souls, not elections and change laws. Well, I think it's really bad. I think it's hurting a lot of people. I think there's a lot of christians who think, man, am I wrong for caring about this? No, you're not. I think this is part of the church's work. And so I kind of wanted to get everything I had to say about it off my chest. So there's a chapter answering those objections. There's a chapter on the biblical outlook of the church's growth and how it leads to the political and then chapter on the issues on abortion, on immigration, on vices, things like that that have been legalized and what we're seeing in that. And so just covers a lot of topics. You can check it out.
I've got the whole table of contents and introduction listed on my site. So if you go to Jackwilkie, Co. There's a page there for the book. From there you can get it through the site, you can get it through focuspress, you can get it through Amazon. And so if you're looking to get a copy of it, you can search it on focuspress or Amazon. But I encourage you, go to my site first. You can see what it's all about and see the options for getting yourself a copy.
[00:03:23] Speaker C: Good stuff. I'm going to be honest with you, I am more excited you send me all your books early, all the way back to failure. I think as crazy as it sounds, I'm very, very excited for this one. This is a, you written on a lot of really good stuff, but I think this is very needed, especially before the election. So we got a few weeks before then. I strongly encourage you to check that out too. I'd say pick up a copy, but it's an ebook, so sign up, make sure to get one of those copies just because this is very needed in this time for us to understand political engagement, especially heading into the election, and to open broader discussions as to how christians can engage with political in the political theater going forward, even after this election and such. And so a lot of really good content there, a lot of good stuff. We have one major announcement. I'm certainly not going to be the one to do it, so I'm going to kick this back to Jack, but we have another big announcement before we jump into the show.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah, believe it or not, those were our small announcements. The big one is focus press. Started actually around think magazine. 2006 was the first issue, January 2006. We've been doing it ever since.
Uh, you might have seen and if you haven't, you can check it out on, on focus press, uh, on the side on uh, through our email. Everywhere it's going out. Brad is putting out a letter on. It's just not financially doable anymore. Uh, to have a print magazine for the size of our company. The shipping is too high. Uh, ink print, everything's gone up the last few years. And uh, it is just, it's starting to become a money loser. But we don't want to abandon think magazine. So the exciting thing is it is now free to everyone. You can join our mailing list. Go to focuspress.org think, think and sign up there. We will email you every month. When there's a brand new issue you can share it with as many people as possible. It goes available digitally. Digitally. Yes. That's, yeah. Thank you for clearing that up. So we're not printing it anymore. It is going from a print magazine to a digital magazine, but that it is going from a subscription based $30 a year magazine to a free magazine. And so we're very excited to have that. And the other thing about it, when you go to focuspress.org think you will see a brand new website that does not take 20 seconds to load a page. So that's been a long time coming. I've been working hard on that new website, new Think magazine. Really exciting times here at Focuspress. Couple of new books. We've just got so many irons in the fire. So that will lead us into this episode because now once a month we're going to do what think deeper was originally started to do. Before these guys came on. I was going to do it in conjunction with the Think magazine issue every month. I never really did. And so now we're going to do that.
We're going to email out the Think magazine every month and a companion think deeper episode to go along with the topic of that month's issue. So that gives us our topic for this month, which is bible words and bible ways.
I guess I'll go ahead and introduce it since I'm already talking and rolling here. But we've got a think magazine issue on it that you can again access for free focuspress dog slash think. But why that came up is as a preacher there were so many times where I just kind of talked about, well, you know, our justification or propitiation, you know, these Bible words. And somebody's like, well, what does that mean? And I don't think it's good to assume, number one, we don't live in the christianized society that we did, where everyone just grows up with a Bible in their hand. Number two, even if they did, a lot of people never really got taught the ins and outs of some of these Bible terms we use. The other thing is, even as a preacher, there were times where I would use a word and it's like, have I really dug all the way down into that? Do I really know that I'm using that properly? And so the Bible is very accessible. It's something I think anybody can pick up and read, but it uses words you don't find in everyday life. When's the last time you talked about sanctification? When you're talking about the football game or going to school or things like that. Like it's, it's something that is a Bible word that we need to learn how to use. And so that is the topic of this month's think magazine and our episode this week. So as we introduce it, as we've moved past the announcements and into the episode, do you guys have any other intro stuff to add?
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Let's dive in.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: All right. Jump right in.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Okay, so I'll take the. Oh, go ahead, Joe.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: No, no, go for it. Go for it.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: I was just going to say, jack, you actually got a line on here that, talking about the problem of assumed knowledge. And I think for all of these sacrifice, justification, sanctification, I'm just going to kind of preview them here. Repentance and works. I think everybody kind of has a general idea of what we, what we think those things mean and kind of, you know, a working definition. If we ask how you define these things, we could probably work up a definition. But I think the, the key for this episode is found in that last two words of the, of the title here. Bible words and Bible ways. What does the Bible mean when it uses these words? What are the New Testament or Old Testament authors meaning when they use these words? And so that's the, that's going to be the focus for us here. But let's go ahead and talk about the first one here. Sacrifice.
Sacrifice is the first one we're going to cover there. Obviously. Sacrifice is a very old Testament kind of centric, kind of, kind of got an Old Testament connotation to it, I guess you would say the first instance we see of that is in Genesis chapter four with Cain and Abel. And then you have all the different types of offerings, all the different types of sacrifices that we see in the levitical law. You have the burnt offering, you have the grain offering, the peace offering, the purification or sin offering, and the trespass offering. There's a lot about offerings, a lot about sacrifices. And then we'll get into the New Testament side of it in just a second.
Joe, I'm going to start with you, and I guess the question that I'm going to ask is for you to answer what should be the biblical definition of this word sacrifice, this concept of sacrifice, and why is it so important? Before we get to the New Testament.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Side, Jack has on here the offering and that being near bringing, I think sacrifice is a way to, and this is where propitiation, some of the bigger words come in a way to come near basically to God. There has to be something that is sacrificed. And this is a question that actually I was going to ask Jack this because I am curious how he might respond to this. So I know I'm not doing a ton of talking and I'm just going to shove this one off. But this requires blood. It requires a blood sacrifice. This is the system that God set up all the way back to the beginning. There actually is thoughts that sacrifice predates Cain and Abel, and it goes to them getting animal skins, that God's made a sacrifice, basically, and used the animal skins to cover them from the sacrifice that was kind of given up to him in Genesis. In Genesis three, correct. I go back to Adam and Eve and of course the fig leaves are sewn together, whatever it is, but then they get these animal skins. Well, where does that come from? It has to come from an animal, which people would assume. A lot of assumptions are made that it is the first sacrifice and it's making atonement for their sins, the sin of taking the fruit, of course. So I think sacrifice all the way up from the very, very beginning, whether that be the patriarchal system, we see job making sacrifices on behalf of his children and for their sins. They were kind of the priests. Then we see the priests.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Abraham and Isaac, obviously, is a big one.
[00:10:28] Speaker C: Yeah, Abraham and Isaac, you know, their sacrifice. So this predates mosaic law. And I think that's where people sometimes we look at it, and as you said, there's several different sacrifices in the mosaic law, but this goes back to potentially Genesis three, Genesis four for sure, all the way up to the time of Christ. And I would say Christ is our sacrifice, but we are called to make sacrifices. And this is where it gets a little bit difficult for people, is like, well, we don't. We don't have sacrifices. We don't. The blood, the offering of blood and bowls and the offering of blood from bulls and goats is no longer, you know, required. That's no longer enough. It goes into that in Hebrews, and Christ being that perfect sacrifice for us, but with each of these, blood had to be given. And Jack, I am curious, your thoughts on why did God establish a system of blood having to be given within the sacrifice to make atonement, to. To cleanse and to be able to draw near to him.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: I think it does go back to Adam and Eve that, and there's a lot of different ways that people interpret this. This is kind of a debated issue in theological circles, when on the day you eat of it, you will surely die. But they didn't die. And some will say, well, they did. They spiritually died. You were separated from God and all that. But I think it's fair to say it does mean death. But there's a substitutionary death that, as you said, is maybe hinted at. Some people are a little uncomfortable saying that an animal was sacrificed to give them clothing, but that goes along with what you see in the levitical law that so many of these sacrifices were for covering. It's not that you're clean, as Hebrews talks about those. The blood of olls and goats couldn't take away their sins, but it could cover them. Because, as you mentioned, offering, the system of offerings there in Leviticus is near bringings. It's things that you bring near to God so that you can come near to God. You have to have, you have to kind of metaphorically be soaked in blood to come before God to say, all right, look, the sacrifice, the toll has been paid because I don't deserve to come before you. And I think why this is so important, the sacrifice thing, there's two sides of it, is, as you come to God, sacrifice has to be made, and that's what Jesus does for us. But your life has to be a life of sacrifice. We'll get to here in a minute because, I don't know, God is so cheapened in this day and age. God, we kind of look at the Old Testament God like, well, that doesn't really count. That doesn't matter for us. No. Studying the system of offerings in Leviticus, studying the wages of sin as death as played out in the Old Testament, helps us realize I don't get to just waltz up to God and be like, hey, pal, can I get one of these? You know, like, that's how some people treat him in prayer. That's how some people treat him as kind of that genie that's there for him.
They treat religion as well. I want to go to heaven, so God's going to cover that for me. But other than that, I'm not going to. No, you don't get to come near to God unless you're covered in blood, unless a death, a payment has been made. And obviously Jesus is that. And Hebrews so beautifully lays it out that they had this system. It did work to give them enough covering to come near to God, but it didn't fully cleanse them, fully wash away the sin so that you can be with God. And then we've got a high priest that's not in there once a year, but daily just removing your sins, sprinkling the blood, making sure you're clean.
And that requires sacrifice, that requires, you know, wages of sin is death, as it says. But yeah, the system of offerings is not just blood. It's you bring your grain, you bring your first fruits of the harvest God gave you because you realize that it belongs to him. You belong to him. You're the best animals you have belong to him. Sacrifice is giving things up for God. And this idea of Christianity without sacrifice, man, that cheapens him. It just says we can come before him however we want. It cheapens Jesus death, which was the price that was paid. And it just leads to a christian life that doesn't have any change at all. And so we need to really.
I know Leviticus can seem so boring. I know it's a slog to read through, but when you realize, like, how many steps had to be performed to even get near to God, they didn't even get to go into the holy of holies. Most of them didn't even get to go inside the tabernacle, like, into the holy place that was reserved to a very small group of priests.
Yeah, drawing near to God is a big deal, and we can't treat it flippantly is what the sacrificial system teaches us.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Joe, you go ahead and go.
[00:14:44] Speaker C: Yeah, those priests had to get everything right in order to be able to do that. So you're saying offering and sacrifices are the same thing is how you're, you're looking at this just to clarify.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it kind of depends.
[00:14:56] Speaker C: You have to sacrifice to offer, right? To offer something as a sacrificial part. But is there a difference? I just wanted to clarify as we're talking because sometimes people can. Are we using those interchangeably? Especially as we kind of come into church part?
Right. And it seems like we kind of are. It seems like the, the sacrifice specifically as it pertains to blood. Was it a. I want to say like Leviticus, 1711, something like that of life is in the blood or maybe 19 going off the top of my head here. But with life being in the blood I think that is key that God does put the life within the blood. The point being, and this is nothing, you know, like people could take it to abortion of. Well, life doesn't happen until there's blood. That's not the point. It is saying blood has to be shed in order for there to be life. And I think God did establish that and that's the importance of blood running through our veins and not consuming blood in the old law.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Like blood is very important to God.
But the aroma as well, that there's an aroma to those things and it has to be perfect. A perfect blood and our blood being shed could not be perfect. So even you see people like the, those on Mount Carmel, right, and they're slashing themselves and the blood's pouring out to bail and it's like, yeah, but that's dirty blood. You are to bring the unblemished lamb the perfect blood in order to make atonement for sins, to pass over your sins. Now we have Christ's perfect blood to make atonement for us. We could shed all the blood we want of our own. That doesn't bring us anywhere near to God because it's not perfect blood. It's not, you know, the life being in the blood like ours is not a perfect life. It took somebody like Christ being perfect in order for that sacrifice to matter otherwise. That's why I think it had to be a perfect unblemished lamb or whatever it may be.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: So we're looking at it. Sacrifices were blood involved. Not all the offerings were blood involved. So there is that separation between the two, although they are closely related. The other thing about these is so many of them where you bring things to God but with a couple of them God gives back to you or you're giving some to the priest so that they can eat. But like it there is the sense of this is in fellowship to God. And the burnt offering could be translated or sometimes as the ascension offering. As you're sending this smoke up to God it's kind of in your place. It's going up before God because you can't. And it's so God can draw near to you. It is a matter of fellowship. It's not just like you're saying with the pagan gods. It's, well, I'm going to make this sacrifice. So he sends grain or sends rain on my field, or I'm going to make this sacrifice so he's not mad at me. This is God saying, I want to have dinner with you. I want to have fellowship with you around my table. And so you have that in the old law. And so with Jesus, he gave of himself to give us the meal. But that's why he says you have to die to self. You have to be a sacrifice to be part of this as well. And when you understand the picture of this old and new law and how there's not that much difference in the basis, the foundation of it, it's just the parts have changed because of Jesus being the perfect sacrifice. It helps you understand how to live as a Christian.
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[00:18:27] Speaker A: That's what I wanted to bring up next is kind of the modern day application of this for us. And, you know, there's a lot of so you think about offering near bringing to God. I'm going to read Romans twelve one and two, and I'll read Hebrews 13. Either one of you guys, if one of y'all would grab Philippians 418, because the New Testament, even apart from the Hebrews discussion about the blood of bulls and goats sacrificing in that context, it's pretty clear that New Testament Christians today are called to sacrifice as well, just in a different form. So Romans twelve one and two, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service, and do not be conformed to this world. But you transform by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. I read Hebrews 1315, therefore by him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God that is the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to his name. So, guys, I have a few thoughts on this and I'll ask, and then I know we got to move on to the next one or we're going to get bogged down on this first one. But as I think about Romans twelve, one and two, present your bodies as a living sacrifice. So my question is, what does that mean? And the way that I've always kind of taken that is the idea that when you choose to become a Christian, when you choose to commit your life to Christ in a way or not in a way, you literally are sacrificing something. And that is the ability or the desire, I guess, to live for yourself, that you're putting yourself to death, meaning that you're going to give that up. You're no longer going to be living for yourself. You're going to be living for God in a sacrificial way because it says holy simple God, which is your reasonable service. Do not be conformed to this world. That's a sacrifice. Those are, there are things that you can't pursue. There are things that you cannot do there. There are things that you just can't have as a part of your life if you're going to be a follower of Christ. And so that's kind of one angle that I, that I would consider that of, like, you have to sacrifice living for yourself. You have to sacrifice, you know, being your own person and doing your own thing.
And then I think the contribution angle to this is interesting, is, is there a level of one of the ways that we have an offering to God or quote unquote sacrifice in New Testament right now, church concepts, is the contribution on Sunday morning. Does that qualify as a sacrifice as an offering? All three of us do that every week. And firm believer that every Christian should, as it's talked about in the New Testament. But how much does that play in? So that's kind of two things. Again, I know I asked one, gotta get Philippians four. So maybe read that and then get into those two questions about romans twelve and then contribution. How does that play play in?
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Well, Philippians four answers your question about contribution, where he says, I have received everything in full and have in abundance, I am amply supplied, having received from epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well, pleasing to God. He's using all the levitical language of sacrifices and offerings, the aroma and whatnot.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: For the financial contribution they made to say, hey. And the same thing an Old Testament sacrifice was supposed to do was supposed to please God. And so your financial contribution knew that. But yourself dying to self. And I, I think Malachi is really useful in this as well, where God is just furious with them for throwing garbage on the altar, bringing the leftovers, bringing the lame animals, bringing, you know, well, God will just take this. And I think if we understood that, that no, God will not take anything and everything we give him, and actually would rather we shut the gates than let somebody throw garbage on the altar. So when somebody goes, well, you know, I come to church, you know, often enough, but it's baseball season, so I'm going to miss a few Sundays here and there. Shut the gates, you know. Well, well, yeah, I know I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to give up this, that, or the other thing or, well, I'm going to stop sinning eventually. But right now, no, no, you don't get to throw like you're a living sacrifice. And if you're a lame sacrifice, if you're a compromise sacrifice, it's not one that God wants. And so this isn't that you have to be perfect to come to God, it's that you're putting your life in his hands and saying, all right, I'm doing things your way. I'm dying to self. And if you have not died to self, you're not a good enough sacrifice.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: The struggle with making the offering, we call it the offering, right? So it is an offering to God. But, Jack, to your point, it has to cost us something. And a lot of times it's like, well, just throw the money in there. And I'm just as guilty of this. How much does it actually cost me? Yeah, we're giving up money. And I suppose that always does to a certain degree. But even the 10% or whatever you want to say, how much does that actually cost us? It costs people a lot more to give up Sunday morning sports. It costs people a lot more to give up bedtime or to give up extra sleep time to get there for the Sunday Bible class. That actually costs you something. And so to me, that's way more of an acceptable sacrifice, of giving up something that matters to you. And I'm not saying don't give, like, that's how we, you know, the work the church is performed and things like that. At the same time, I think we can look at it like I offer to God, well, did you offer to God that which costs you nothing, which David says I'm not going to do. And a lot of times I think christians show up, and that is very much the mindset of like, I did give him something that cost me nothing. There's no pride in that.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: I completely understand your point and like the main thrust of your point there, I do think if you're giving money in your, in this inflation based society where everything's costing more subscriptions like it, I think if you're giving money that's costing something now, if everybody, people are giving $10 a week or something like that, man, you know, that's probably not costing you a lot there. But I think for, for those of us who are giving a consistent, you know, sizable amount and not, we're not here to talk about how much money people should get. But you know what I mean? Like, I agree, if it's like, well, how much do I have left? How much do I have in my pocket? I got $10. Okay, sure, I'll throw it. Yeah, that's probably not costing you a ton. You just gave up your Starbucks coffee or whatever. But for the people that are putting a consistent sizable amount of money in every single week, yeah. I mean, I think that's costing something.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Well, I think it does, but I'm looking at it like, okay, so the African who, it's the widow's mic, right? The African who literally can't hardly make it and comes in and gives to God. And maybe it's $0.50, but that's like half of what he, you know, that's half of what he makes in a day that matters. You make $100,000 a year and come put a hundred or two, you know, $150, whatever it is in there, I know that costs you something along the line, but to me its kind of like its easy to go. Yep, I made my offering. I mean, when in reality maybe theres somebody that really could use it, but its going to cost you a little bit more. Maybe you have something youre not willing to give up. Its like, well, I already gave to God. Thats my point is its easy to write the check every week. And I know, yes, it does cost people in this inflation based society. Im not saying, but its easy to view offering only through the lens of I put some money in the basket. Im all good.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:25:12] Speaker C: When in reality we need to be thinking about is this, is it costing me? And yeah it is costing me. It's inflation, everything else. I realized that but you know what I mean? Like we in America are filthy rich and I look at contributions for a lot of churches and it's like, okay that means 50% of the members probably are putting in a 20 but they think that's their offering. They think that's okay.
I'm sorry I don't want to be.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: A jerk on this but the number somebody puts in the basket is not really. And I think this is to will.
[00:25:40] Speaker C: It's undicative.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Well because that person might be giving tons on the side to missionaries to, to focus press. Hey there's a plug. You know things like that on the side that, you know things they want to support. Uh, and so it's not so much the number that goes in, it is that heart of like and I think this kind of combines what the two of you were saying. Joe, if you're like all right I put it in, we're good to go versus you know will, like you're saying it might not be that much in the basket but if you have the heart forgiving you are looking, you're, you're using what God's given you as you can. Yeah that's, that's a sacrificial way of living. The other thing that we do have to move on. So I want to wrap with this is I think it's really important because I don't want somebody to come out of this like brow beaten like man boy have I put enough in the basket? Have I done enough? Am I this, that? If that's your attitude, you're probably on the right track. But when they came away from making that offering, having their meal with God, bringing that stuff, the priest would assure them your sins are forgiven. Like you're good with God, you, you have fellowship with God. All is right with God at this time. That's why they had the day of atonement nationally, corporately we are together, we're with God. And if you're not getting that out of it, we need to make sure that you are. We need to make sure that if you are right with God, if you're not hiding some sin, if you are living your life sacrificially, that doesn't mean you're perfect, that doesn't mean you've just nailed everything down. God loves you. God is in fellowship with you. You're walking in the light first, John one, all those things. And so live sacrificially and then accept the benefits of fellowship with him that come from the sacrifice. You know, they got to view that so visibly, like they had the meat returned to them. We don't get it as visibly. We need to take it on faith that, yeah, we're in fellowship with him. So let's move on to justification.
[00:27:16] Speaker C: Well, I do want to move on, but I want you to give a 15 2nd explanation of redeemed. When we talk about being redeemed, like, you know. Okay, well, you're saying you've now been redeemed. We don't have it on the outline, but I think it fits into this one of. I think we have atonement coming, right.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: 15 seconds. Good luck.
[00:27:34] Speaker C: Yeah, let's get to it.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Because we've got propitiation with hearing justification. It's these words of redemption, atonement, things like. So let me just. We'll get to those here as part of this justification one. This is another one that, I mean, in a way, it's simple enough, and this is one we do kind of use, like secularly, that, you know, you have to justify accounts. You got to make things match. You got to make things right, essentially. And it does mean that the idea of our justification with God is. But the doctrine of justification is kind of at the heart of everything. Right? It's our salvation. Soteriology, our. You go back to Martin Luther and the reformation was to say, wow, justification has been all messed up by this catholic system. We're going to get that right. But then maybe there was an overcorrection to where people, some people just go, well, faith only. And what they mean by that is I just mentally have to assent to there being a Jesus, and that covers it. Like, and so when we talk about justification, it is being made right with God. It's justified that you are in fellowship with God. You've been taken from an enemy of God, lost in sin to a child of God, and you're justified in that way. But let's talk about how it happens here. I know will's been in Romans a lot, and so romans is the key. Romans is where Martin Luther found his way as well. And we'll get into our disagreements with Luther, but I think he hit some interesting stuff there in romans three and four, because it says what it says.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I said this when I preached on romans three for my money. There's not a more.
I don't know what word I use, but I probably important, more important passage, section of scripture than Romans 321 through 26.
I'm not going to read the whole thing. I encourage you to go read it. But I'll just read 21 through 24 because that's where the word comes up. But now the righteousness of God, apart from the law, is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. I'm going to go and read the last two. I can't call it the most important, and not read the last two.
Whom God set forth as a propitiation by his blood through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance, God had passed over the sins that were previously committed. To demonstrate at the present time his righteousness, that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. And then that word justification appear is littered all throughout, romans two through four, and then even moving forward into romans. But I think the reason that. I think that this is one of the most powerful sections, most important sections in all of scripture is because Paul has spent romans two and Romans three and Romans one of them, talking about the Gentiles, but Romans specifically two and three, talking to these people who thought they were spiritual, who thought they were righteous, and telling them, you are rotten sinners, you are guilty before God, you are guilty in the sight of God. Romans three nine or verse ten, there's none righteous. No, not one. Basically talking about jews, gentiles. Yet guess what? You're both. God can look at both of you as groups and see nothing but sinful wickedness, unrighteousness, because of who you are. But the concept of justification is that because of Christ's blood, because of the. The grace that God gave, uh, to us through offering his son, he can look at us and declare us as righteous. We are just. That's what, to me, that's the way I always define justification. And Jack, you already said this. But like we are declared righteous, God looks at us and he sees right. Instead of seeing sin, which is what Paul's built up three chapters to say, that. That he sees sin because we are justified by the blood of Christ, God now looks at us and does not see sin. God looks at us and sees a righteousness. Because then that gets into some of the other words. Justified freely by the grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus by his blood to demonstrate his righteousness.
And so, yeah, for my money, no more powerful section of scripture because of the way that Paul's built it up. And then that kind of pinnacle point, that climax of, he can be just. And the justifier, he can look at us instead of seeing sin, see righteousness. What would you guys have to add to that section? And then romans five one, he's got on here, too. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:31:48] Speaker C: So, 320 talks about we are not justified by works. And then he kind of wraps this in five one. Or rapid. It kind of gets into a different section, but justified by faith. And so you do look at it. And as Jack said, a lot of people look at this as a mental ascent thing of, okay, it's not my work, so I don't have to really do much.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: It's.
[00:32:06] Speaker C: This is where people go wrong, is I don't have to do anything. And then James comes in, is like, well, you got to show me your faith.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Well, because he spends all of chapter four talking about Abraham, basically, and how he was justified by faith. Yeah.
[00:32:16] Speaker C: Correct, correct. It wasn't really his righteous deeds, but it's like, well, he did righteous deeds because he had faith. And so obviously, James and Romans are using them, or James and Paul are using them differently. But what does it mean to be justified by faith, then? If it's not just a mental ascent, it's not the works. We see that in 320. So, Jack, I wanted to throw that to you. What does that look like if. Like, what does he mean by faith being justified by the faith if it's not merely just a. All right, I know that Jesus died for my sins, and I accept that type of thing. And then go from there. How then are we justified by faith if not that?
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is. We might have to just jump the outline a little bit, because the faith and works thing is the. The big confusion in the world of Christianity that, again, Luther got onto. But Luther, I think, badly overcorrected on that. But I think people in the churches of Christ overcorrect Luther and go the other direction sometimes and make works too much of a part of it. Because just to back up ahead of where we'll started reading is was verse 20. By the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. This is the part of the justification I really think christians need to understand. Well, it is not your goodness that gets you saved. It's not verse 20. Verse 20.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Verse 28. He repeat, repeats it. He's not justified.
Or we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Right. And so, and again we get so nervous about overcorrecting to, well, then we don't have to obey God. No, no, no, that's. Paul knew that we were going to overcorrect that, too. And so he goes to chapter six to say, look, if it's by grace, should we just continue in sin? Well, no, of course not. He says, may it never be. He understands that somebody can badly swing the pendulum away from, oh, now I don't have to obey. He says, no, now you are freed to enslave yourself to Christ. And it's this paradox of Christianity. You're a freed slave who is now enslaved again, but under a better slavery and all that. But when it comes to justification, so many christians, and this is more and more, I'm like, I'm trying to emphasize this. In fact, I've got another book in the works that I'm going to try and get out here in a few months on the christian salvation and your assurance in Christ. Because so many of the things we talk about and think deeper and the challenges to christians and doing better and growing, and we're kind of pushing excel still more. So much. I think one of the reasons some people bristle against it and do the you're too negative is they don't have assurance of their salvation. They're thinking, now I've got to do that too. Like, no, no. If you don't understand that you're safe with God, then growing more like Christ is going to feel like a burden is going to feel like, oh, now I've got another thing to add to the list to get into heaven. No, no, no. You've got to read romans three that says, it's not your goodness that's saving you, it's not your works, it's nothing.
Well, I'll just use an example. It's not by homeschooling your kids that you're going to get into heaven. I think it's really important. And so then we've got the people who are feel burdened by that, and then we've got the other people who just throw it off. Be like, you can't bind that. You can't make me do that. I don't have to. If it's not on the list of things, I have to do it again. It's like, there's not a list of things, okay? There's faith in Christ that is your justification. And so you ask, what does it mean? You've got to define faith. If somebody asks you, are we saved by faith alone? Most of the time in the church of Christ, we immediately say, no. I would say, well, what do you mean by faith?
If you mean I have put on a blindfold, put my hands in Jesus hands and said, whatever you ask me to do is what I'm doing, you're saved like that. That's it. That's faith.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: And that's basically what Paul is saying in romans three.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Right. If you're going, well, I'm going to do this, that and the other thing, and then I'll have, you know, no, or then I'll trust in Christ for the rest. No, I'm going to do my best. And then grace will cover the rest. You know, it's kind of, I came up a few bucks short and Jesus will cut. No, that's not it either. And so are you saved by faith alone? I think the way that a lot of folks in the denominational world mean that no, if, why do you get baptized?
Faith, right? Yeah, Jesus told me to get baptized. Why did Abraham leave his home? Because God told him to. Why do you repent of your sins? Because God told you to. That's faith. All of it is faith under the same umbrella. If somebody just means faith as a one time, ask Jesus into your heart, that's not good enough. That's not, that's not faith.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Well, let's talk about, you brought, let's just go ahead and do the work side of things because that obviously plays very much into this discussion where you see in Romans four and in James two, they basically use the exact same scripture about Abraham to communicate two different things. But it's all about what type, what, what's your definition of works? What type of works are you talking about? Because people will say, oh, well, so you're making baptism. You're making baptism a work. And, you know, we don't believe in work. So, you know, those who are, you know, kind of not antibaptism, but don't believe, it's essential. Oh, so you're making baptism at work. The key in this discussion about works and about faith is are you talking about works or deeds that will bring you to salvation, that will basically earn or achieve your salvation? Because that's what Paul is saying is never, that's not something that is going to save you. Those things don't exist. Works and deeds that are going to bring you to salvation. That's, that's not that's an oxymoronic concept. What James is talking about is works that are the natural outflowing of your faith, the kind of the byproducts, the fruits, the results of the faith that you have after you've already been saved. And so it's a cart before the horse thing where, yeah, if you're like, well, let me do all these things, and that's going to, you know, get me to heaven.
That's obviously what Paul is speaking against. If you're the guy that's just like, well, I've got faith, and that's really all that I need to have. And then his life looks no different than somebody who allegedly doesn't have faith. Well, then that's what James is preaching against and saying, yeah, no, guess what? You don't have faith. It's non existent, it's dead. And so that's your definition of works is an important distinction to make in this discussion. Again, the people that will say, oh, well, James and Paul disagree with each other. No, they didn't. They were operating off of different, really, definitions of what the word works. That's why they can use the same scripture to point out kind of two different things, because it's different definition of works and the idea of baptism being a work. And Joe, to answer your question, then I'll kick it to you, because I'm sure you've got some thoughts on this.
The question of, well, how does, how does faith being justified by faith work? It is in the proper context of Romans, what all has to be done. You have to be redeemed by the blood of Christ. You have to be, you have to be justified by his blood. Well, how does that happen? That's where Romans six comes in, and you stay within the context of being buried with him in baptism and all that. That's still a matter of faith. That's still very much a. Paul in no way views that as a work that you check off your list to achieve salvation, but it is how you come into contact with the blood of Christ. And so it's still, in my opinion, kind of operating under this guise of you are saved by faith, and that faith is, is asking you, not really asking you. So baptism is a, is a massive part of that faith. So, Joe, what would you have to add to that whole discussion?
[00:39:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I think Romans gives a lot of different things that kind of lead us to salvation all under the umbrella of faith, because this is where you get a lot of people that go to Romans ten, nine of, if you confess Jesus as lord. Right. And believe on him, then you'll be saved. They go, see, all I got to do is that's the sinner's prayer. Just confess him. And I did. Okay, well, then you're leaving out Romans.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:36] Speaker C: And you're leaving out the other parts.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Even there, if you're confessing Jesus as lord and then you don't do what you're saying, you didn't actually confess him is Lord. Like it's right.
[00:39:42] Speaker C: Right. So what is his own verse to do?
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Yeah, so much bigger than that.
[00:39:46] Speaker C: But from the works point, I like Ephesians two because I think ephesians two, nine and ten, really, or eight through ten, I'll read, opens the door to how we ought to view good works. He says, starting verse eight of ephesians two. For by grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not as a result of works. So that no. 1 may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. So you've been created in Christ. You've been, you know, you've been added to the body through grace because it is on solely by grace that we have been brought in. And yes, our baptism and all of the other things, the repentance and our five steps of salvation, all of those can be classified under faith. But it is grace. It's not because I got baptized that, you know, while I'm a really good person, see, that has nothing to do with it. It is grace that brings us into it. But why does he bring us into it? For good works. Once youve been brought into Christ, go do good things. Right, because youve been saved. Because theres grace. Go show grace because youve been saved. Go save. Because youve been, you know, forgiven. Go forgive others. Like, go do the good works that God is putting in your path as a Christian because thats the whole point of us being made christians is to be more like Christ. And good works are what help us be more like Christ. It's the fruit of the spear. Galatians five. So you're right, will, the, the cart for the horse is perfect. In terms of discussing this, when we get back to justification, I'm curious your guys's thoughts. I've heard just as if I'd never sinned. What are your thoughts on that? Have you, you heard that one for just as if I'd never sin?
[00:41:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of the church of Christ. Quip for it. Yeah.
[00:41:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: I think enough. Yeah. Of. Yeah, you know, you. You're being, you can get really technical and be like, well, actually you're better off this way then, you know, like, because you can go, what was it you had? Innocence. And. Yeah, I won't go down that rabbit hole.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: I don't want to nitpick. Typically, I don't like this sounds terrible. The Church of Christ quips on things I usually not big fan of. I don't really have a huge problem with that. I mean, I think it's a. It's fine.
[00:41:41] Speaker C: It's just a handy way because once again, we're seeing these big ones, and this is a plug for Jack's book, Sunday school catch up. We did not talk about that. We plugged a lot of different things on this episode. But if you're interested in this, he goes into a lot of these different things and it's very bite sized pieces. He'll explain it. So Sunday school catch up is a great one to pick up on this for justification, but also for these other words, which I don't know, Jack, if you. I can't remember if you go into it in the books with the additional words we talked about, redemption, redeem, propitiation, atonement. Let's briefly touch on those before we hit sanctification. Sanctification is going to be more of the continual type. Justification is a one time we've been saved, you know, at our baptism where we're buried with Christ, romans six, we come out of the water a new man. We've been justified. We. Our sins have been cleansed. But then we're getting into, again, propitiation. We're getting into atonement. We're getting into redemption or him being our redeemer. So I don't know which one you guys want to tackle first on that. We know. I'll take atonement, I suppose, because that's a nice and easy one. I'll leave you to the other ones. But when it comes to atonement, we have the day of atonement going back into the old law where it is at that time passing over. And it goes along with the Passover, right? Where they put the blood on the doorposts and they have the angel of death pass over them. And so with the day of atonement, it is God passing over sins. They're making the sacrifice. Right. The spotless lamb of God.
And that becomes.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: They send the one in the wilderness and.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:43:05] Speaker C: There you go. So the scapegoat with the sins on it and such. And so Christ, that his crucifixion, this is the atonement that we receive. And so really it is. But it's not just a passing over sins at this point. It truly is putting our sins onto another one and him taking the brunt of our sins. And Isaiah 53 talks about this, of him bearing ours. So that is, the atonement is we have been cleansed of our sins. We have put them onto another being the same way that they did with the scapegoat back then. And that's. I don't know. I'm trying to think of what all.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: That'S penal substitutionary atonement, which a lot of people have more and more of a problem with. I think that's a very cultural thing. You know, they're trying to. It makes God look mean. Well, why does God need death? Well, because the wages of sin is death, okay? And somebody's got to die. And so there are different theories of atonement, that Jesus wasn't actually dying for our sins. Like, it gets pretty strained. But I'm going to go with the fact that, yes, it.
He was dying for our sins in the same way that they were having the animals stand in and die for their sins. That's why they had to place their hand on the head of the animal and everything. The levitical law, again, understanding the levitical law helps us in these ways a lot. So that's a good cover and propitiation. Again, it's the satisfaction, the payment that needs to be made to satisfy the debt that's due. And so useful words there as well.
Let's see, are we on to sanctification now?
[00:44:32] Speaker C: Redeemed was the other one that I was going to ask about.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that is a more common word of redeeming. Something is having it paid for.
We've been redeemed. We've been bought with a price it talks about.
[00:44:45] Speaker C: Because I was curious, your thoughts on people connected to Ruth the kinsman redeemer. That he is our kinsman redeemer. And there is a little bit more to that than just redeeming a voucher type of thing, seemingly. How would you explain that to people who are wondering what the connection between Ruth? It's kind of a weird one, but some people will get into it. Preachers will mention that he's our kinsman redeemer. Can you explain that? That's why I was asking the 15 seconds. Can you explain that in a brief summation of what that is.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: You gotta stop with these 15 2nd things. I mean, it's an entire book of Ruth and the levitical law and the kinsman.
[00:45:18] Speaker C: It's only four chapters. You're fine. Yeah.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: And all of that it covers in the law. Yeah, I mean, it was just that there was obligations in the family to redeem this widowed woman and the one passed on the obligation. And there was some shame in passing on the obligation, but Boaz was the one who stepped up and made the payment for her. Came and redeemed by doing what it took to take her as his wife and bring her in and standing in to give a family to the man who had died. I mean, like, there's.
It's a lot of complicated stuff there. Just to say of Jesus kind of as our stand in. Jesus bought us with a price. Jesus came in and took care of us and so. Yeah, thanks. 15 seconds. Good job, Joe. Thanks. See?
[00:46:03] Speaker C: Perfect. You handled it. Good stuff. Good stuff.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: Not good enough. There's a lot more there, but that's okay for another day.
[00:46:09] Speaker C: I put you on the spot. That wasn't in the outline, but you know, just, just for help.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: I wanted to tell you guys about my new ebook, Christ's co rulers understanding christian political engagement, drawn from essays I've written over the last few years, but also featuring a number of new entries on some of the days most pressing issues like immigration, abortion, and addressing those that say that christians shouldn't be involved in the political realm and laying out the plan for how we can impact the world for good under the lordship of Christ. So check that out. You can get it on focus Press, you can get on Amazon, or it is a perk for paying subscribers at Jackwilky Co. So pick up a copy of Christ's co rulers on one of those platforms today.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Will get us into sanctification.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's move on. This is, this is the big one. This is one that, as we are at the 45 minutes mark, as we're just now getting to sanctification. So justification obviously being something that, that happens or something that I guess the concept of when you put on the blood of Christ, when your sins are forgiven, when you're baptized, you are justified in the sight of God.
You know, we've talked about the idea that it is still ongoing in the sense that it's not a one time thing that you're stamped for life, but it is more of a. Initially you are justified when you become a Christian. Now, when we're talking about sanctification, that is very much something that's definitely not a one time thing, something that is continually happening throughout your christian life. So the idea of sanctify, I think a lot of people would define it as, you know, you are set apart or you're becoming set apart, but I think kind of a not better way to look at it. But like, I think the idea of being set apart means, like, I still get the kind of connotation of a one time thing. You are, you are set apart as a Christian, but I think what it should mean is that you are growing more and more different than those around you, almost more and more set apart. You are and not just set apart, but set above in the same way that God is holy. In the same way that God is kind of set not just apart, but set above when you and I are, when all of us as christians are involved in the sanctification. And we got into this a lot with our Holy Spirit episode of the work of the Holy Spirit and how we are sanctified, you know, as we go through our christian life. I do believe that as you continue to live like a christian, as you continue to make decisions based on what would Jesus want me to do here? What would a, I like CS Lewis's thing about it is the basically entire, I'm going to paraphrase him, it is the entire role of christians to become little christs, to become more and more like Christ. And so as you make decisions based on that idea, what would a, what would, what would Christ's decision be here? How would Christ tackle this decision in my life or whatever it is? How would Christ spend his Tuesday morning or his Wednesday night or whatever it is? As you continue to make those decisions and as you continue to make them in line with what Jesus would do, you are growing more and more set apart, more and more set above, and not in a set above way to look down on people, but in a. I'm becoming more like Christ. I'm becoming more, and we've said this before, if you have somebody who was baptized two weeks ago and somebody who's been baptized for 30 years, hopefully they should look very, very different. And that's because of sanctification. The person who was, who became a Christian two weeks ago is still a babe in Christ, is still, you know, the work of the spirit, Holy Spirit is just beginning. There's still a lot of things that, you know, maybe they have in their lives or decisions they're making that are, you know, maybe not totally in line as they're trying to become more and more like Christ. The person who's been baptized for 30 years, hopefully, is far more, looks far more like Christ, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'm describing it very well. What would you guys have to discuss about sanctification? Specifically?
[00:49:53] Speaker B: This goes along with what I was saying earlier about the justification and the churches of Christ of, like, the, you can't bind that, give me the list. That kind of thing. Sanctification is about.
It's very much like parenting. You know, we all have little kids right now. It's very list based. It's do this, don't do that. It's very, just by the book, by the law. What we're trying to do is raise them to older kids. And those who have had older kids and raised them, I'm sure, understand this as a teenager, that it doesn't have to be a list, that they start to understand. They start to know, they start to mature into the decision making point where they might ask you sometimes, they might need some boundaries sometimes. But there's also, they're growing into adulthood where you want them to make good decisions on their own. Well, sanctification is not, okay, well, give me the commands. Give me the do's and do nots. Hebrews five talks about this as your maturity of understanding right and wrong, of you kind of just know. You start to, your, your sensibility changes from what you want to what God wants. And, yeah, that doesn't mean you're throwing away the list. The, the commands, the do's and the do nots are still there, but you have grown past that to where you're going. What ought I to do? We had a whole episode on good, better, best. What is the right way? What would be most pleasing to God? There might be five things that I could choose from that none of them are a sin. But you don't go, well, it's not a sin, so I can do what I want. You say what draws me closest to God, what helps me be more like him, what helps me see the world through his eyes. That's your sanctification, as will saying, you become more of Christ, less of you. And all the verses that talk about that little Christ, that you think the way he thinks, not the way you think. And I, that's learning that your nature is to think in the wrong direction. Your nature is something you can't trust. Uh, you know, what was the one of the, was it Pinocchio? Jiminy Cricket? Always let your conscience be your guide. Yeah. The Bible says the human heart is full of wickedness. Like, it's realizing I can't let my conscience be my guide. I've got to trust in him. I've got to look to him. And a sanctified person is a person that starts naturally choosing things God's way, that your. Your conscience can start to be your guide, because it is a spirit infused conscience rather than your own.
[00:52:07] Speaker C: So I think about the great book, which I don't know, you guys read at Tommy Kabatz.
Have you gotten through that?
[00:52:15] Speaker A: I have not officially read it. I want to really badly, but I have not.
[00:52:18] Speaker C: It's a fantastic book he gets into, because you can look at passages like one Corinthians one two Hebrews 1010, where it talks about, you've been sanctified. And so people can look at it go, well, okay, you guys are talking ongoing. I thought it was a one time. I thought I'd been sanctified. And I look at atomic habits. In the book, he talks about viewing yourself as a healthy person. You are a healthy person. Healthy person. Or a healthy person makes healthy choices, rather than I'm a fat person who's really trying to get healthy and I'm trying to do these things, but I just fall short, you know, that's just because at the end of the day, that's not who you are. You are the fat person. You're trying to change that, but you're not there. He says, start by changing the mindset. And this is how I look at sanctification, is like, you've been made righteous. A righteous person does righteous things. A righteous person. So the person led by the spirit sows under the spirit. That's who you are. And so the sanctified, when he has these one off ideas, like, again, one Corinthians one two, which I had pulled up, says to the church of God, which is a Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus saints by calling, we have been sanctified. We have been made righteous. Righteous people do righteous things. And if you find that you're not doing righteous things, and you are continually walking away from God, this is where you get into grieving the spirit, quenching the spirit. And then I think this is the Hebrew six, trampling under sacrifice or trampling under foot, the sacrifice of Christ, sanctification should. What's that? Well, 60 and ten.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: The trampling underfoot, though, is chapter ten.
[00:53:43] Speaker C: Is it? Is it ten? Okay, sorry. The Hebrew six gets into falling away as well. Yeah, but, um, I think that's where this comes in is the sanctification is a righteous person doing righteous things. You have been made righteous. Therefore go do righteous things the same way that the mindset of, hey, I'm a healthy person, and a healthy person puts on the workout or puts on the shoes and goes for a run. The healthy person lifts weights in the morning. A healthy person eats an apple instead of the brownie. Like, that's what a healthy person does and that's who I am. We have to think of it. That's how I kind of view this. We have to think of it the same way in sanctification is I've been made righteous, I've been sanctified. Therefore I'm going to do things that are going to bring me closer to God, the good, better, best, right? Like this is the sanctification process. So yes, it's a one time thing, but it's also ongoing at the same time, just depending on the mindset of our mind has, and this is also Romans six, our mind has been set on the things of the spirit. And Romans eight as well gets into that.
[00:54:36] Speaker B: So my friend Joseph makes an interesting point that usually we talk about justification is what happens at your baptism. You're justified and sanctification is the rest of your life. And that's a pretty good basic explanation. But some of those verses you just cited talked about you were sanctified.
First Corinthians a couple of times says that you were as it was a past tense thing. And there are other ones that talk about securing your justification, that your justification is ongoing or it's not fully sure. And I think that's important as well. I mean, it helps illustrate you can lose your salvation and that you're justified when you become a Christian, but you've got to make it all the way to the finish line. And so your justification continues to be applicable. It's not a one and done kind of thing. Once saved, always saved, or whatever. And then your sanctification is that you were set apart, but you have to continue growing set apart. You can't just be a little bit set, like to Will's point about the day of your baptism versus later. You're set apart on the day you're baptized, but you should be more set apart as you continue to go. And I've probably mentioned it before, but Hebrews 1014 is one of my favorite verses because it's, it gives the assurance, but also is kind of the motivation to keep going. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified you're perfect. You're clear in Christ, your sins are forgiven. You're being sanctified. You still. The rest of your life is growing more and more and more set apart. And so it's the motivation to keep going under the assurance that you're already saved. Like I was talking about earlier, all these people, like, man, I got to do more. I got. I'm still. No, you're saved. You are perfected once for all time with that sacrifice. So now you're free to keep going. It's not a burden of, oh, man, this is heavy. And if I don't keep going, I trip and fall in one. One wrong move, I'm in hell. You're free to just get better and better and better.
[00:56:31] Speaker C: All right, are we ready to move into repentance?
[00:56:35] Speaker A: It's our last one on the list, I think since we already last one.
[00:56:37] Speaker C: On list, at which we are at the. Yeah, boy, let's get into it here. Since. Yeah, we did jump ahead on works. So we have repentance. We have John the Baptist baptism, a baptism of repentance. It talks about. Whereas he's coming with. He says in Matthew three, he's coming with. He's going to baptize with the holy spirit and fire. He's baptizing with repentance. And so a lot of times what we look at is kind of that about face right, the 180 turn of u turn and go in the opposite direction, and that's repentance. And so where this hangs up a lot of people is if you struggle with a sin more than once, you feel like you haven't repented, especially in the church. Christ, we're pretty bad at this, of not understanding grace. So things like addiction are things like, I screamed at my kids today, and I screamed my kids again. And so there's this, you know, I haven't repented. I haven't done what I'm supposed to do.
How do we define repentance if it's not completely turning away from that sin and choosing something different? How do we define repentance within the confines of things like addiction? Within the confines of. I still struggle with anger. I still struggle with these things. I must not have been sanctified. I must not have been forgiven, or I must not, you know, be repenting because I'm still struggling in sin. How then can we define repentance?
[00:57:50] Speaker A: So I think, does that mean those.
[00:57:52] Speaker C: People are going to hell if we don't completely turn away from it and never do it again?
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Well, so that I think that's the difference, is repentance does not mean, let's say you struggle with something and you get baptized and you obey the gospel. Repentance, in my viewpoint, does not mean you will never struggle with that thing ever again, as obviously we continue to stumble after baptism. What's changed is the desire and the attitude, the perspective of that sin. Whereas maybe previously it was something that maybe it felt kind of bad about, but I'm just going to keep doing it for repentance. To me, as you consider Luke 13, you consider when Jesus says repent or you all likewise perish. We got on here acts 238, of course, very well known, repent and be baptized.
We don't need to look at it just as a, well, it's a step of salvation.
You do it when you get baptized. It is a way of life in that. And I think it's very much tied into sanctification in that. Anything that you see as something that you struggle with, because we all have different struggles. Somebody maybe has an anger problem, somebody else has a lust problem, whatever it is. What is your attitude towards that? What is your perspective towards that? Is that something that you are doing everything in your power to stop, that you are earnestly putting obstacles in your path? The example I always give, Joe, brought up addiction. The example that I already always give of, if you've had, if you're living a lifestyle, repentance, and let's say you had a pornography addiction, have you done everything in your power to give that up and continue to strive to that? Do you have an accountability partner? Have you put filters on your, on your computer, on your phone? Have you deleted Instagram? Have you deleted TikTok, deleted YouTube, anything that might potentially lead you in that direction? Have you, do you have the screen time app, like, all these things? Or do you just say, well, you know, I'm gonna really try to break that addiction. I'm really trying to stop that. And then you never really put any obstacles in your path. Does that make sense, Jack? Do you understand kind of what I'm saying there? Similarly, let's say, take the addiction part. Let's say you really struggle with yelling at your family or something, yelling at your wife and kids. Is that just something that you do? Oh, man, I shouldn't have done that. And you're doing it again two days later. Oh, man, shouldn't have done that. And you're doing it, or are you actively doing things to try to prevent yourself from doing that? Are you taking 10 seconds to think before you speak are you, I don't know, starting your day in the Bible to get a better frame of mind. Like, there are so many different avenues and things that I think it does not mean that you will never slip up and yell at your kids again. Does not mean that you will never, never, ever lust again. Yeah, good luck telling. Telling guys you'll never lust again. But what are you actively doing to get over that in your life? Because to me, repentance before you became a Christian, you probably weren't doing that. You probably were not. Maybe you felt bad about it again, but you weren't necessarily repenting of it once you're justified. And I think this is part of the sanctification process, once again, you're actively trying to look for ways to put obstacles in your path. So I don't know if that makes sense. Jack, what thoughts would you have to add to that?
[01:00:59] Speaker B: It does, because, I don't know. I think it's very easy to make it like. Like you said, a step of salvation or for individual things. I'm sorry I did that one. That one thing. But. And this goes to some of Joe's therapeutic stuff of, why are you doing that? Why are you going after this thing? Why are you giving into this sin?
And I just. I love that. The biggest, you know, greek dictionaries, when you look up the word that is most used for repent, it just change one's mind. That's what it says. Change your mind. That's it.
As simple as that. And so it's changing your perspective. It's saying, I want this and not that. And it's just a general way of life. And I think one of the important things that we can certainly overlook is the wickedness of the human heart. As I brought up earlier, like, to understand man, I am not right by nature. I am not by nature. We can get into the weeds on that one a little bit, but just like my predisposition is toward the wrong thing, and I have to realize I'm changing. And so there's a reason why repentance was at the center of the gospel. They were to proclaim. At the end of Luke, Jesus says, you're going to preach the death, burial, and resurrection and repentance for forgiveness of sins. And then I go preaching repentance and baptism everywhere. Acts two, acts three, acts 17. I mean, just over and over, repent, stop being who you are and start being somebody different. And so it's this realization that, yeah, things really do have to change. So, yeah, don't oversimplify it don't make it a step of salvation. It is part of the lifestyle of becoming a different person. And all of these go very closely connected, which is why it's important to get them right and figure out where the jigsaw puzzle pieces fit. So we're gonna have to wrap right there for time's sake. But we do have a think fast for, for Will. We do have some more to get into the deep end. If you have words, Bible words that you would like us to discuss in the deep end, be sure to leave it in the comments. They're on focus.
[01:02:54] Speaker A: Plus we gotta be careful what we're asking. They might ask for a tough one.
[01:02:57] Speaker B: They probably will, I'm sure.
[01:02:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:02:59] Speaker B: Hopefully they give me more than 15 seconds to get into it.
[01:03:01] Speaker C: But hey, we, we're already over time, so if I had given you any more, we would have been really over time. So also generous.
Yeah. Just think about the bottom line here.
[01:03:12] Speaker A: All right, so very quickly, we're gonna do a bit of a more fun one this time. There is perhaps other than an affection for discussing logical fallacies and political discussion and being wrong about a lot of his sports takes, possibly. There's possibly nothing that Jack is more well known for than his disgust of pumpkin. Pumpkin things and pumpkin things are naturally a part of like autumn and fall. I was going to ask you guys very quickly, what's your top, give your top three things about fall. Here we are in October. I think all of us would agree it's probably our favorite season. I know it's become mine. I said on the gym podcast, it used to be summer, then I grew up. Fall is now the best season for sure. What are your top three favorite things about Paul or Paul Fall?
[01:04:00] Speaker C: Pretty.
[01:04:00] Speaker A: I'm pretty confident that pumpkin does not make any of our lists. I'll go first, since I'm making you guys think on the spot. Number one for me is going to be football season. Love football. And it's just kind of a natural fall thing that I absolutely, absolutely love. Number two is kind of a cheating, I guess I love. Thanks. Thanksgiving is my far, my favorite holiday. And so I'm going to say that thanksgiving, but also just kind of, the, kind of inherent in fall is the natural build up towards the end of the year. You've got Thanksgiving, you've got Christmas, and you've got New Year's. And so just kind of that, that sense of like we're getting to the end, we're getting to some exciting stuff. I really love that about fall. And then third I'm going to say is a hoodie weather. I love wearing sweatshirts. Love wearing hoodies. And you don't, you know, that's. Love the cooler weathers and getting to wear those things. So those are my top three. I don't know who wants to go next? Joe.
[01:04:46] Speaker C: Looks like I can go next. Yeah, it's cold, but not frigid. I love that about fall, that you're not freezing, uh, freezing to death, but it's also cool outside. Um, so my top three things would be, I love the weather, um, or I love, rather, the changing of the leaves that go along with the weather. Just the cold, the beauty of outside frost that kind of starts crisp. It's. It's, you know, the changing of the leaves down here. I love the aspens in Colorado, which is kind of September time down here is just gorgeous, watching the leaves change. So that's, that's number one. Number two is going to be the food. I'm not a pumpkin guy. I hate pumpkin. At the same time. You still have apple cider doughnuts, and apple cider at night. You have a lot of soups, you have breads, you have, like, rich foods that, that come in this time of year, which I love. Um, and number three is I had it and I lost it. But I love the fires. Like, the smells outside, it's just a, it's a sensory season more than anything else. Instead of just getting out of the heat, like, it seems, sensory, you got the fires going outside, you've got the, you know, you're. Maybe you're making apple cider or whatever it is at night, and it just smells really good. Like, there is just an aroma to fall. The candle burning, um, as dumb as that may be, like, I love that. It just feels cozy. You walk inside to, like, our house has leaves and things like that all over the place. It feels cozy. The burnt oranges and the, you know, that sounds. That sounds woman.
It just. Yeah. The aesthetic of. I know it's better than any of the others.
[01:06:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I would agree.
[01:06:22] Speaker B: I feel like it brings people together. Like, summer, everyone's going their different ways, vacations, it's hectic and all that. And now that it's cooling down, it's darker at night. Like, it's. You kind of reconnect with your church family, with people around you, with things like that. As you said, the holidays obviously bring people together and things like that.
The sports season will mention football, but honestly, you got football, you've got hockey and basketball start. You got the baseball playoffs. As a sports fan, it's probably the best month of the year is October. Um, and then the other one is you guys talked about the leaves, the weather and all that. The autumn sun is the best, where it's cool and crisp outside. And then you go out in the morning and the sun hits you and you're warm, but you're still kind of cool. You're. You're warm where the sun is hitting you in your face and your back is cold. Like, it's just something. It's one of those feelings that there's. You only get it once a year and. Yeah, so I'm trying to be hyper specific with that one.
[01:07:11] Speaker A: But nice.
[01:07:12] Speaker B: That is.
[01:07:13] Speaker C: You described it perfectly. Because it's exactly what it is. Yeah, I.
[01:07:16] Speaker B: There you go. If you guys have to add to the list as a fun thing, pumpkin.
[01:07:20] Speaker A: Still did not make any of our lists. That's.
[01:07:21] Speaker B: No, Apple was a good choice. Joe Maple as well. Don't forget Maple brown, sugar, maple.
[01:07:27] Speaker C: All that, you know.
[01:07:27] Speaker B: Yeah. There you go.
All right, well, that if you again any in the comments, Facebook, YouTube, wherever you find us, leave a comment on Bible words that you think need covering or just would be interested to find out more about. If you got a fall favorite, be sure to tell us that as well. And we'll talk to you guys next time. That.
